Rep. Dennis Kucinich and Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen debate the war in Iraq

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Both President Bush in Texas today, and Donald Rumsfeld in Iraq, were talking about just how swell things are going in Iraq. But, a new survey says most Americans believe the war was not worth it. In the CROSSFIRE to debate Iraq, Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen — she is a Republican from Florida, and Congressman Dennis Kucinich, he is a Democrat from Ohio.

HOLT: Welcome to the program, Mr. Kucinich, nice to see you.

During the presidential campaign, you were in the primaries, running for president, and your primary issue was the war in Iraq, and how we should get out, essentially a cut and run strategy. You have to be happy that you were wrong.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, actually, history has shown already I was right, that there was no reason for the United States to attack Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction. As a matter of fact, you know, if you read the commission on intelligence...

HOLT: We freed 25 million people.

KUCINICH: We’re "dead wrong." This report said that the administration was "dead wrong." We shouldn’t be there, and we should work with the U.N. to get the U.N. in and the U.S. out. We still need to do that. We need to bring our troops home.

HOLT: But Dick Durbin, a colleague in the Senate, says obviously, that we can’t cut and run on democracy in its infancy.

KUCINICH: You know, this report that I just got here, apropos of what you said — I just received this, Paul, I’m actually releasing this on this program — Congressional Research Service, here’s what they say about our presence. That we’re building bases in Iraq now. And they are saying that it suggests substantial U.S. investment to improve facilities that could be used for the longer term could be perceived as indicating a more extended U.S. presence. Instead of building bases and pouring money into these bases, we should be building a path out.

But we’re opening schools, building hospitals...

KUCINICH: Oh, please. I mean, we can’t find the money from the $9 billion. They can’t account for $9 billion that was supposed to go to do the same things you’re talking about. Administration says one thing and they do another. Don’t we — haven’t we caught on to this?

BEGALA: Let me ask you about this, Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen. It’s good to see you again.

REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: Good to see you, Paul, thank you.

BEGALA: Congressman Kucinich mentioned the shifting rational for the war. First it was the threat to America, that they have the weapons of mass destruction that they’ll use. Then it was Saddam had links to al Qaeda. Then we were told the Iraqis could pay for their own reconstruction. None of that worked out. We haven’t been credited as liberators, none of that worked out.

So, now as Terry notes, we are told what we liberated 25 million people to give them democracy. Let me tell you how they are using the democracy. They have chosen a prime minister. His name is Ibrahim al Jaafari. Let me tell you about Mr. Jaafari — you know about him, obviously, but our audience doesn’t, in case they don’t know.

Here’s the book on Ibrahim al Jaafari. He’s a member of the Dawa Party — the leader of the Dawa Party, with very close ties to the Iranian dictators next door. In 1983, Dawa was linked to the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait where six people were murdered. He lived in Iran, a terrorist state, for nine years. Today, as the leader of Iraq, he refuses to shake hands with women. He was the leader of a push to make Islamic law — sharia — control on issues on women’s rights, like marriage, divorce and inheritance.

Did 1,545 Americans die so that a misogynistic, theocratic nut ball can lead Iraq?

CONGRESSWOMAN: Oh my gosh, take it easy. Oh, my golly. Get the meds. Take it easy.

BEGALA: Is that why they died?

ROS-LEHTINEN: Every one of those lives is important. I have a stepson who is a Marine officer, will be deployed in Iraq, and very proud to serve the country, very proud to wear his uniform...

BEGALA: Pro-Iranian, theocratic nut ball who won’t shake hands with women.

ROS-LEHTINEN: ... for the 8.5 million people who successfully voted for the first time in their lives.

BEGALA: They are nuts!

ROS-LEHTINEN: For the government that they choose. Now, for the government that they choose. We never said this is going to be a Jeffersonian democracy. We did not say we’re going to...

BEGALA: Actually the president did. He did in Cincinnati, Ohio. He went and promised that it was going to be like Wisconsin but with better (INAUDIBLE).

ROS-LEHTINEN: No, we said we are going to empower the Iraqi people to police themselves, and they have. Every day we have more Iraqis...

BEGALA: So, you endorse — you endorse Ibrahim al Jaafari.

ROS-LEHTINEN: I endorse the right of free people to freely elect their own leaders. Now, let me tell you, we have multiparties existing there. We have people who are responsible for their own security. We are training Iraqi police officers. We are training judiciary folks. We are training them at all levels and this is thanks to the great sacrifice of those over 1,500 men and women who gave up their lives so that these people could be free. Hallelujah for freedom and hallelujah for democracy. It is worth it.

KUCINICH: Let me just add this, though. Everything this administration said about Iraq was wrong. You know, there’s a line in the Bible that says "that which is crooked cannot be made straight." This whole thing in Iraq is crooked. The 9/11 Commission proved how wrong it was. The Senate Intelligence Commission proved it. And what do the commission on intelligence say, the president’s own commission? That the administration was "dead wrong." Now, they are trying to blame the intelligence, but they (INAUDIBLE) the book!

ROS-LEHTINEN: But Dennis, you can’t — you can’t move — you can’t move past that.

KUCINICH: Move past it??

ROS-LEHTINEN: You cannot see the reality of today. What is the reality of today for the Iraqi people?

KUCINICH: Nice to meet you.

ROS-LEHTINEN: The reality — the reality is — that they are going to schools...

BEGALA: You are shaking hands with a woman, Dennis. Be careful! You can’t be the leader of Iraqi.

ROS-LEHTINEN: They are building clinics, that they are opening small businesses.

KUCINICH: I saw it...

ROS-LEHTINEN: How much are you going to keep going — we had that election.

HOLT: The reality is...

ROS-LEHTINEN: We’ve had that debate. Bush won.

BEGALA: Whoa...

ROS-LEHTINEN: Get over it.

HOLT: Well, this is about...

ROS-LEHTINEN: Now we’re going to enforce the Bush doctrine of spreading freedom, democracy, and hope to oppressed people.

KUCINICH: You know what I can’t get over? I can’t get over that we attacked a nation that did not attack us, that we spent the lives of over 1,500 American servicemen and serivcewomen, that we’re spending a billion dollars a day, losing a service person every day. I’m not going to get over that. And I think we need to get out of Iraq. It’s time to get out of Iraq.

HOLT: But the subject is the future. The subject is the future.

KUCINICH: The future, you know, what is past is prologue. If you are standing on a lie, where do you go from there?

HOLT: But I would dispute almost everything you said.

ROS-LEHTINEN: But, Dennis,(INAUDIBLE) would you have — we ignored the bombings on the U.S Embassies in Africa, we ignored the bombing of the World Trade Center. We ignored every terrorist act against our country.

BEGALA: No, we didn’t actually. We attacked the terrorists. We didn’t attack Iraq which was not behind any — was Iraq behind any of the terrorist activities?

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: Was Iraq responsible for 9/11?

ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, let me ask you: did we do right in Afghanistan? KUCINICH: Were they responsible for 9/11?

ROS-LEHTINEN: We have —

KUCINICH: OK. I’ll answer your question, you answer mine.

ROS-LEHTINEN: Terrorists have a common link and we have seen Zarqawi, bin Laden, all of the folks who want to injure the United States of America, are our common enemy. Whatever their name is and wherever they are.

KUCINICH: I am answering her question.

ROS-LEHTINEN: What about Afghanistan? Did we have a right in Afghanistan?

KUCINICH: Here’s the thing. The United States has a right to defend itself, but we also have an obligation to know the difference between someone attacking us and someone not attacking us. Now I’m going to ask you. Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11?

ROS-LEHTINEN: And as I said, every terrorist who wants to put the United States in their sight is our enemy.

BEGALA: This is not a criminal court.

(CROSSTALK)

ROS-LEHTINEN: Saddam Hussein will be tried, will be tried, for the crimes that he has committed, the mass grave...

KUCINICH: He never actually had anything to do with 9/11, Ileana.

ROS-LEHTINEN: I answered you, Dennis. The Afghanistan was a direct attack — the Taliban was a direct attack against the United States.

KUCINICH: Iraq. 9/11, Iraq...

ROS-LEHTINEN: And, as the president said, any country that harbors terrorists, that gives them sanctuary, that provides any comfort to the enemy, is an enemy of the United States. And we will — have a right to go in there.

KUCINICH: How are we ever going to have peace in the world if we have an administration that will use any justification whatsoever to wage aggressive war against any nation.

ROS-LEHTINEN: You believe the Iraqi people are worse off now?

BEGALA: Congresswoman, hang on just a second. We’re going to come back to this in just a second Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen, Congressman Kucinich, hang on just a second. When we come back, I’m going to ask our guests why it is that the majority of the Americans in a new poll say the war in Iraq was not worth the loss of American blood and American treasure.

BEGALA: Welcome back. It has been two years since that statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled in Baghdad. American troops are still not being greeted as liberators. And more and more Americans are now saying the war was not worth the price.

Still with us in the CROSSFIRE Republican Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida and Democrat Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio.

Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen show you the poll. This is a Gallup organization commissioned by CNN and "USA Today." Asked a question, a simple question was it worth going to war in Iraq? For quite a long time Americans were saying yes, now the majority of saying no. Are the American people wrong, stupid.

ROS-LEHTINEN: I am glad — I’m glad we have a president who does not go by popularity polls. He does not go by Gallup polls.

BEGALA: Do you think the American people are wrong.

ROS-LEHTINEN: And further more, the American people voted. No the American people are right when they voted President Bush.

BEGALA: No, but they’re wrong now and saying it wasn’t worth it.

ROS-LEHTINEN: No, you would have had this same kind — depends on how it is phrased and the way they use a word.

BEGALA: That’s all it asked, was the war worth it?

ROS-LEHTINEN: If you would have had it in November, and if you would have asked that same question I bet you would have gotten the same response. But when they had — when they had the chance to vote, they voted for a president who was decisive. You knew where he stood. And let me tell you — to go back to some other point we were making.

(CROSSTALK)

ROS-LEHTINEN: You know you were saying that we were in it...

KUCINICH: I want to answer this — I want to answer this. And I want to speak directly to those sentiments of the American people that are expressed in that poll. It’s time to bring our troops home. It’s time to recognize that this administration mislead the Congress and the American people when they said there were weapons of mass destruction.

ROS-LEHTINEN: Then also We were mislead by France, by Germany, by Russia, by China.

KUCINICH: Bring our troops home who are the targets of insurgents. Are we going to lose the life every day of an American servicemen or sericewoman? Are we going to spend a billion dollars a week on this? Isn’t it time that we recognize that we need to reach out to the world community. Get the U.N. in and get the U.S. out of Iraq. Get out of Iraq. Somebody in Congress has to say that.

(CROSSTALK)

ROS-LEHTINEN: What about all the U.N. resolution.

KUCINICH: Somebody in Congress has to say get out of Iraq.

ROS-LEHTINEN: The U.N. resolutions. We were not in it alone. France voted with it, Germany, Russia, China.

KUCINICH: They didn’t vote for us to attack Iraq.

ROS-LEHTINEN: They had the same intelligence. Oh, when it came to action they fled the scene, absolutely.

KUCINICH: There was no proof, Ileana.

ROS-LEHTINEN: They voted how many resolutions that said...

KUCINICH: I’ll go back to the question I asked you. Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11?

ROS-LEHTINEN: You ask all of your friends in France and Germany and Russia.

BEGALA: There actually is a filibuster rule here on CROSSFIRE.

HOLT: Yes there is.

BEGALA: Terry, go ahead.

HOLT: Mr. Kucinich I, frankly, am worried about the Democratic Party because as I heard you today your backwards looking.

KUCINICH: I have had that concern, too.

HOLT: And you don’t have an agenda for the future. I wonder — you know, Hillary Clinton in fact has said that until you get it, that security in this country is the number one issue, you’re not going to win any more elections. Do you disagree with Hillary Clinton on that?

KUCINICH: This isn’t a question of what Hillary Clinton thinks. Let me share with you as my world view. I see the world as being interconnected and interdependent. We need to work with the world community to get rid of all nuclear weapons, to support the biological weapons convention, the chemical weapons convention, the small arms treaty, the land mine treaty, join the international criminal court. Sign the Kyoto Climate Change Treaty.

HOLT: I think I rather that the U.S. lead the world.

ROS-LEHTINEN: And then we join hands and we sing "Kumbaya."

(CROSSTALK)

KUCINICH: You could be singing it at the funeral of our troops.

BEGALA: A spirited debate. We’ll have you back again for more.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/12/cf.01.html