The Dutch don’t like Bush either

Forum posts

• 10 May 2005, 01:05

  Hey Esme Cokbee, you can’t "feel like" you’ve lost your civil rights. Either you have or you haven’t. And apparently, you haven’t lost the right to free speech.

  If FDR had been as isolationist as the protestors think America should be, would they ever have been liberated from the Germans?

  • 10 May 2005, 02:03

    Correct me if I’m wrong... but what you seem to be saying.. is that you can only loose all of your rights or none of them. Of course this isn’t logical, so maybe what you believe instead is that the citizen in the Netherlands who said " I feel like I’ve lost lost my rights " is incorrect — i.e. in reality, no rights have been ’technically’ rescinded. I don’t know if this is true or not since it isn’t ellaborated. But the escalation of the police state, per say, is just one of the many things that everyone who is concerned with freedom should be mindful about IMO...

  • 10 May 2005, 02:12

    Man, you Bushapologists are truly clueless. No protester has ever said America should be isolationist. They protest an invasion and occupation of Iraq based on lies, and the Europeans should know. They’ve seen this bad movie over 60 years ago when a short maniac named Adolf led his country to ruin using very simular tactics. People of Europe are grateful to all ALLIED soldiers who died to free their countries. They’re just not too fond of the feeling of Deja Vu they’re getting from the current U.S. leadership.

  • 10 May 2005, 04:39

    Very well said! Nobody in Europe "hates" American people! We have trouble to understand that ambush and torture is a way to free countries!
    At least the history in Europe is known and interpreted whereas the Americans have a long way to go by now. 3 Million Vietnamese have been killed and still die because of the use of agent orange.

    Americas answers: a war memorial for the U.S. soldiers in Washington who murdered innocent Vietnamese civilians.

  • 10 May 2005, 18:46

    I see, Europeans just hate Americans like me. To be honest, I spent a long time in Europe in the 90s, and most people there were friendly. Sadly, based upon a few encounters with anti-American xenophobes, I have to tell you that some Europeans simply hate Americans. (And the 90’s were a pretty good time for Americans to be in Europe.)

    Your Vietnam point is too simplistic. I know plenty of Americans who served there and somehow managed to get home without killing innocent civilians.

    European patriotism tends to lead to world war, so Europeans hate their countries. Then they expect Americans to hate their country, too.

    Can’t y’all feel good about your countries without hating someone else’s? I spent my life telling mornful Germans they should be proud of all of the wonderful things Germany has done in the past 60 years. Only now, when they hate America, are they allowing themselves to feel good about Germany. Not exactly what I had in mind.

  • 10 May 2005, 18:54

    You’re right, I made my point poorly. My point is that a diminishment of rights cannot be subjective. Either those rights are curtailed or they aren’t. Obviously, the guy still has the right to say silly things. Maybe some other fundamental rights have been curtailed by the Dutch government, but if that’s the case, there’s a problem with his democracy, not mine.

    (The next guy down the board isn’t worth responding to. The simplistic "Bush = Hitler" chestnut is so historically irresponsible it boggles the mind. By casually making light of Hitler, it is basically a form of holocaust denial, and for that matter, of WW2-denial. Saying the sky is green doesn’t make it so.)

  • 11 May 2005, 03:40

    Some european countries’ citizens are hesitant about feeling patriotic? Honestly, this is interesting information to me that I’m going to have to remember. That Europeans would tend to be more cautious about feeling ’patriotic’ than Americans would, can hold merit since they have a much longer history to learn from than Americans do. It’s a bit odd, but it would appear that populations can and do ’mature’ better than others. I think that this maturity, of course, depends on how well a specific populace has been educated on past and current affairs... very very interesting.

    I too spent time in Europe — Germany to be exact. I served as a USA MP there from 00’ - 02. I only got, like, one dirty look my entire time over there ( not that this prooves anything ). I didn’t really glean much from German sociology as you seemed to — I was more concerned with soldiering at the time.

    About the transgressions ^ don’t get all uptight about the cheap verbal attacks.. many people on this site tend to come in with a ’shoot first, ask questions later’ approach.. I’ve been guilty of this once or twice as well! It doesn’t take long for anyone here to realize that this is the place to be attacked if you’re looking to voice just about any type of concern or opinion, radical or otherwise. In fact, many people (probably college kids though, mostly ) will strait-up insinuate pure bullshit from your words and paint you a false color to suit their need to find an enemy (it’s kind of like a bar, isn’t it?). Many people come here frustrated, and looking for a fight to say the least.

  • 11 May 2005, 05:37

    First you say Bush=Hitler isn’t worth responding to, then you respond to it , and you do so using the most guttercrawling form of arguement possible , that saying so makes one a holocaust denyer. I suppose if I brought up the subject of American curtailment of rights due to the Patriot Act you would call me a conspiracy theorist. So I will leave you as you are, hanging out for all the sane world to see what happens when you lose the remote with the t.v. stuck on FOX.
    -J.C.

  • 11 May 2005, 14:35

    Hey J.C., would you prefer the term "holocaust belittler" or "holocaust cheapener"? That’s what you’re doing, and if calling it by its name makes me a gutter-crawler, than that’s what I am.

    You are correct about one thing: parts of the Patriot Act need to be repealed (or stricken down by courts as unconstitutional).

  • 11 May 2005, 14:48

    First of all, thank you for your service, I mean that sincerely. Second of all, let me clarify: most people I came across in Europe were friendly. I had a few unfortunate encounters with a few people who just launched upon determining that I’m American. (One was a drunk Brit.) I’m sure you can find such people in any country, America included.

    My comments on German sociology may or may not have merit—I’m no sociologist, it’s just a pet theory based on conversations with Germans I have known and worked with. I actually like Germany and Germans a lot, I’m just confused about recent trends there. (Why does a Michael Moore book make a bigger splash there than an outbreak of real democracy in Georgia? If they’re not risking blood and treasure to topple a guy like Saddam, why do they care so much if someone else does? Why are they so eager to sell top-shelf weapons to China?)

    I also admit to posting a few things on this site with an aim to simply upsetting the applecart. This site has real potential for genuine debate, though, so I try to avoid name-calling.

  • 11 May 2005, 15:06

    I posted a response, but it didn’t appear. I’ll re-post the most important part: thank you for your service. I mean that sincerely.

  • 12 May 2005, 05:44

    It’s understandable that europeans don’t feel patriotic. It was their patriotism that dragged the rest of the world into two world wars. Patriotism for europeans seems to manifest in extreme behavior. Somebody should study why this is so.

  • 12 May 2005, 10:08

    The interests behind the Bush Administration, such as the CFR, the Bilderberger Group, and the Trilateral Commission—founded by Brzezinski for David Rockefeller—have prepared for and are now moving to implement open world dictatorship within the next five years. They are not fighting against terrorists. They are fighting against citizens."

    —Dr. Johannes B. Koeppl, PhD, former German defense ministry official and advisor to former NATO Secretary-General Manfred Werner

  • 12 May 2005, 13:41

    If Dr. Koeppl is someone who would normally be taken seriously, this is truly an amazing quote.

    Maybe Europe’s own recent history is so unbelievably horrible that people there are inclined to believe anything. Just a thought.

• 11 May 2005, 22:30

  Oh, the Dutch "don’t like Bush" really?? Gee, you ruined my whole day. I feel so bad now.

  You have the audacity to mention our Patriot Act? How about what happened to Theo Van Gogh?
  Hasn’t your government reacted to that tragedy? Well maybe to you "liberals" in Europe, the Dutch government over-reacted. Better to take a chance and have your kids blown up on a bus, rather than deprive a suicide bomber the constitutional right to get on that bus, right buddy? As Michael Savage titled his new best selling book, "LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER" and by God, he’s right.

  we are doing what we need to do to protect ourselves. Object to having the FBI review the reading habits of potential killers? Then don’t take out books entitled "How to Blow up The Pentagon in 10 Easy Steps" OK? Do what you need to do to protect yourselves, or not. As you wish. Please do not criticize the USA for doing what we must do.

  And regarding the remark in the article about "suing the President" It is precisely because of that reason, we will NEVER, repeat, NEVER be a part of that rubbish you call the International Criminal Court. Thank God our President had the balls to just say NO to the bloody Europeans.

  • 12 May 2005, 18:32

    You’ve got precious few friends left in the world already so dissing the whole of Europe and the Dutch in particular at a time like this doesn’t make you the sharpest tool in the box.
    Can you not understand that if you kept your big mac fuelled asses out of everyone elses business or even gave up being the worlds most hypocritical nation for five minutes you might not have to attack the Dutch or anyone else with your ill informed prattle.

  • 12 May 2005, 19:45

    I wouldn’t call the europeans friends. Let us just say that the previous arrangement worked for everyone. I agree with you that my government interferes in too many countries. I’ve said this in another post before. It is time to dissolve NATO and pull our troops out of Europe and South Korea. We don’t need to be there and we are wasting our money. It’s time for Bush to reorganize our alliances around China, India, Japan and Latin America. It’s time for Bush to stop supporting the Saudis, the Egyptian government, and all the other despots. We should concentrate on those countries that are willing to work with us and where both sides can benefit. And we should leave the UN. That organization is the worst thing that we have ever come up with. Let the UN move completely to Europe.

  • 12 May 2005, 20:21

    M butting in here. I can’t speak for the guy you’re responding to, but I like Europe. Europe has plenty to be proud of, and Europeans certainly know how to have fun. I wish Europe was more prepared to promote liberty and democracy throughout the world, but I’ll settle for their new status as relatively friendly neutrals. In retrospect, the 1990’s would have been a good time to end the military occupation of Europe. 60 years is enough. (Doesn’t it make sense to end the occupation of Europe before ending the occupation of Iraq?)

    To say that America is always sticking its nose in others’ business is disingenuous. Americans wanted nothing to do with either of the world wars Europe started, but the lesson of both is that, sooner or later, we get dragged in, so better to do it on our own terms. In 1940, a lot of people—particularly the Brits—were hoping we would get involved immediately. Plenty of Europeans wanted America to step in sooner when the Serbs were incinerating their neighbors in the 90’s, too, but you can’t have it both ways. America is not a wild dog chained to Europe’s porch, to be released only when it is convenient for Europe.

  • 15 May 2005, 07:27

    America didn’t want anythng to do with Europe’s two wars, hahahahahahaha, the US couldn’t wait to get into them, if you do a little reading about FDR and Churchill cooking up how to get the US involved instead of believing all the propaganda you were taught in the government run school’s history books, you will find out FDR was itching to get us involved, the US was blockaiding the Japanese ships and was supplying the British with weaponry and other aid FREE of CHARGE (supposedly by loan, but on the no payment plan). The sad truth is that the USA likes to paint a very rosy picture about those times leaving out all of the uncomfortable parts and the embarrassing and blatant facts about our pre war involvement, kind of like how the Christians like to rewrite the Bible or the Mormons the Book of Mormon, why tell the children or the world the truth when a big fat lovely lie makes us look so much better.

  • 19 May 2005, 21:49

    No, YOUR analysis is wrong. FDR wanted the US to get into the war sooner rather than later, but FDR . . . . was not America. That’s the flaw in your argument. (Sure, Churchill wanted America in the war—everyone knows that.)

    Americans generally liked FDR but were very unhappy with his policies that violated neutrality, such as getting USN destroyers to shadow U-boats and broadcast their position to London every hour. Americans were very prepared to leave Europe to its ancient hatreds. Even after Pearl Harbor, FDR was worried America wouldn’t recognize that Germany had to be fought, too. (Hitler resolved that issue by declaring war on America.)

    You’re also wrong that lend-lease was "FREE of CHARGE"; the US sent a destroyer to South Africa to pick up the UK’s entire reserve of gold, about $16,000,000,000 in today’s dollars. True, that was only a small down payment on what the US shipped to the UK, but some of us would consider that real money. ;)

    You say I read propaganda . . . I do need to study more, but you need to study even more than that.

• 13 May 2005, 16:08

  We have "very few friends" left in the world?? Who bloody Cares! If they are not our friends now, then they never were our friends in the past, either. We voted for President Bush precisely because he doesn’t give a rats’ hind quarters what the world thinks, post-9/11. If your bloody useless Useless Nations had any merit, we wouldn’t even be in Iraq, for crying out loud!
  I agree totally with the above remarks, we must get OUT of the UN, that bunch of hoodlums and criminals. I mean really, Pedophiles! How come we’re not hearing about THAT scandal on BBC?
  You bloody bunch of hypocrites. You’re good only for criticizing the President of the United States, and America. No wonder Americans don’t trust you, as far as they could throw your candy-asses across the street.

  As soon as the French vote "NON" the EU is dead. Notice how Britain never even switched over to the Euro? Such is the trust they place in the European Union. John Bolton will give the UN the ultimatum: stand up to the Iranians, or you are quite right: Bush will declare them irrelevant once and for goddamn all. How many resolutions do you want to pass regarding Iran, let’s say, 20?? I mean, you gave Saddam, what, 16? What a joke. What will you do about it, when the Iranians thumb their noses at you, and start enriching Uranium, BESIDES alert the BBC and the bloody New York Times!

  Nice guys finish last, remember that, pal.

  • 13 May 2005, 17:59

    We stopped listening to you storm troopers when one of your members said the U.S should align itself with China , one of the largest human-rights abusers in the world, source of cheap union-busting labour and possessor of large stockpiles of nukes (WMD’s in your lingo) . You’ve got big balls to cheer on the invasion of Iraq while proposing a romance with the next super-power, who will soon be needing all that oil just as much as you do.
    Oh, and sorry to gutter-crawler, I guess Bush won’t equal Hitler in your mind unless there are 6 million Arabs dead. That should happen right after the invasion of Iran, so I’m jumping the gun.
    Me bad.
    —J.C.—

  • 13 May 2005, 19:29

    Hey J.C.,

    Gutter-crawler here.

    You’re 100% right about China.

    You’re still 100% wrong about Bush = Hitler. Hitler disarmed his own citizenry and destroyed an ethnic minority in his own country before launching wars against all of his neighbors—democratic and otherwise—for "liebensraum." He killed at least 6 million people when they were in custody, not on the battlefield. Having to point out these slight differences between what Hitler did and what ANY American President has done (even Andrew Jackson and the Cherokee’s Trail of Tears) is simply absurd.

    You remind me of the wild-eyed rhetoric Yasser Arafat used when he called the battle for Jenin "Jeningrad." The UN bought that one hook, line, and sinker, originally estimating the dead at 20,000. After they investigated that matter, the UN revised those numbers down to total dead in the low fifties—about 1/3 Israeli soldiers, 1/3 Palestinian irregulars, and 1/3 civilians—basically what you’d expect of a small battle for an urban area. So let’s recap: 3 million people died in the battle for Stalingrad, less than 60 in Jenin. You, Yasser, & Henny-Penny; what a team.

  • 14 May 2005, 00:28

    LOL. Instead of whack-a-mole, JC can now play whack-a-gutter-crawler.

  • 14 May 2005, 05:47

    Yo, Gutter-crawler,
    J.C. right back atcha ;

    Feels like we’re starting to bond here. (Isn’t this what Bellacio is for ?)
    Relax , man. I said I was jumping the gun about Bush=Hitler. It’s early yet, sort of like 1939.
    Bush has not disarmed his own citizenry yet. He doesn’t have to, they’re too busy using arms on
    each other. He HAS destroyed a minority in his own country , namely the unparanoid. As for
    ethnics, he’s doing a pretty good job against the Arabs overseas but not intentionally, of course.
    They’re just collateral damage. And my German is a little rusty, but isn’t "liebensraum" pretty
    close to " you’re either with us or the terrorists " ?
    Now then, the Arabs aren’t in his custody, (especially Osama Bin Laden ) , but if you shoot
    someone and then say " I had to, he was gonna do me first ! " without any evidence, you’re
    going to hang, just like those Generals at Nuremburg. Like I said, it’s still a little early for that.
    Oh I forgot, Hitler SAW a battlefield in World War One. Bush is definitely not like Hitler. Keep
    the faith, girlie-man .

  • 15 May 2005, 15:12

    Look, surely the time has come for us to ask people like 63 *** 93 what they’re doing writing crap on this site when they should be banging on the doors of their local recruiting office begging to be sent to Iraq so that they can join W’s great crusade for freedom and democracy..... Like in Uzbekistan???? Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites.

  • 16 May 2005, 23:27

    Hello J.C.,

    G.C. here.

    "Yo, Gutter-crawler,
    J.C. right back atcha ;
    Feels like we’re starting to bond here. (Isn’t this what Bellacio is for ?)"

    J.C., you’re so sweet, you give me cavities.

    "Relax , man. I said I was jumping the gun about Bush=Hitler. It’s early yet, sort of like 1939."

    I must have missed the Anschluss last year, then, and Kristalnacht before that. I’ve also missed the little badges certain minorities must have been wearing and the mass-confiscation of private property.

    "Bush has not disarmed his own citizenry yet. He doesn’t have to, they’re too busy using arms on
    each other."

    2nd Amendment guarantees the others.

    "He HAS destroyed a minority in his own country , namely the unparanoid"

    Funny, I feel fine. Completely undestroyed.

    "As for ethnics, he’s doing a pretty good job against the Arabs overseas but not intentionally, of course."

    Of course.

    "They’re just collateral damage"

    Except for poll-workers, ice-cream-scoopers, and other non-combatants deliberately targeted by the insurrectionists, yes. A lot of Americans, Brits, and others have died fighting in a way that minimizes civilian casualties. We could’ve simply B-52’d Baghdad, WWII-style, with virtually no loss of our air crews, but we didn’t, and plenty of our soldiers have died because of it.

    "And my German is a little rusty, but isn’t "liebensraum" pretty close to " you’re either with us or the terrorists " ?"

    No, it means "living room". The Germans needed more elbow room, so they initially split Poland with the Russians. Both the Germans and the Russians did their best to make the pesky Poles go away, one way or another.

    "Now then, the Arabs aren’t in his custody, (especially Osama Bin Laden ) , but if you shoot
    someone and then say " I had to, he was gonna do me first ! " without any evidence, you’re
    going to hang, just like those Generals at Nuremburg. Like I said, it’s still a little early for that."

    There’s a moral difference between killing someone on a battlefield and killing someone in custody.

    "Oh I forgot, Hitler SAW a battlefield in World War One. Bush is definitely not like Hitler."

    Fair enough.

    "Keep the faith, girlie-man."

    Hugs & Kisses, J.C. Say hey to Ahnuld.